Curse

Fitz Rinley · Nov 07, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
So specifically the game designers were prejudiced against Warriors by differentiating them in these ways:

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
What are you talking about? Prejudiced? Where in the bloody hell are you getting "prejudiced" from? Be sensible. This game (and the dev's intention) is not some...nightmarish pre-Civil Rights Movement alternate reality.

Response: The last prejudice to be addressed will be the prejudice of personallity. It was the intention of those who kept slaves to save their souls, of course they couldn't be prejudiced.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
1) Their primary attribute does not advantage secondary class skills as does the primary attribute of other classes, and

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
So what? If you're a primary Warrior, you're designed to do damage. Strength adds one point of armor penetration per level. It's a primary Warrior's best friend in many cases.

But I really don't see the problem with Strength being Warrior-only, anyway. How this is detrimental to the economy...I have no idea, and I haven't seen you explain it at all. When you have tried to explain it, all I read is long-winded verbosity that says little to nothing at all.

Response: It isn't about the number of physical attacks a spell caster should be making. (Although a Caster-Warrior ought to be able to make them well! But can't because there are insufficient points to allot to those attributes for use at the last minute.)

You analysed backwards. Strength is a warrior only trait. It does not increase damage of Smiting Skills or Earth Skills. Fast Casting is a Mesmer only trait it does improve speed of casting ALL primary and SECONDARY skills.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
2) They are penalized with reduced energy points so they cannot utilize the class skills/powers of the secondary which they receive - unlike all other classes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
25 energy is more than enough for a Warrior. If you're running out of energy, you're doing something wrong. Plus, I don't even think you've got a valid criticism here, because on top of sounding incredibly nit-picky, if you're playing a Warrior/Ele, and including an Ele spell like Earthquake in your skill bar--a spell that costs 25 energy and causes Exhaustion--that's not the Dev's fault, nor is it the fault of the War's 25 energy. That lousy planning is your own fault. That goes with any of the higher-cost Ele spells (and any higher-cost spells in general) available, too. If you're bitching about the lower energy pool of Warriors, you need to start thinking energy management, that's the bottom line.

Response: I don't use elementalists skills because I can't stand the way they look. The same for the Necromancer, although I would play one if they didn't look like criminal drug addicts from a leather bar. The Elementalists just remind of the rich kids that used to steal mommy and daddy's credit card to play punk for a day or get attention. So, I have never used there energy costs outside of the available trial quests in Pre.

As a Warrior I do not use anything that costs more than 5 points to cast. As a game player I have always known that fastest damage (1) for least cost (2) wins battles. Dead enemies do no damage. In this game it is mandatory:
Flurry - Sever - Wounding/Galrath - Power Attack - Seeking Blade = 15 points. I have learned to keep Healing Sig and Endure Pain at all times. I keep Resurrection Spell for post rear advances and clean-up. I used to attempt to use Monk spells for healing or smiting, but found them to be useless or detrimental in everycase. There is no point in slotting any of them, ever. If one must play past Maguma, or even North of the Wall to be able to successfully integrate any combination of class attributes and skills and be effective as a character then there is no reason for a secondary to exist.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
(This latter is supposed to be balanceed out by adrenaline which sometimes works against foes that drain energy, but some foes are capable of draining life, energy, and preventing adrenaline at the same time in my experience.)
Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Yes, those are called Mesmers. What's the problem? You've got Soothing Images and Sympathetic Visage. That's about it in terms of Adre Breakers. Any Enchant removal and Symp.Visage isn't a problem. Any Hex removal and Soothing Images isn't a problem.

Response: As I have fought for 95% of everthing I have, every gp and monster across the map from Pre to Sanctum Cay, I am almost 20+1 level. At this point I can slaughter gargoyles and mergoyles by myself, no problem. I do not recommend anyone thinking they are going to use Warrior Monk as an ideal attempt to do so. If you drop the Monk and exist solely as a warrior they can't harm you. If you don't your dead. If you try to heal yourself (ie. Healing Breeze) you take 70 pts damage. As the slotting is limited, lag is a factor for most, and repetitive hitting of the bars creates issues, enchantments ought to be good (mechanically for the computer use). They are even the majority of the Monk Spell list. This is one definate example of how the secondary has no value to the primary.

The attributes do not assist. The skills are unusable due to limitations of slotting, energy, and targetting structure of enemies. This makes the idea of a Warrior Monk - Divine Warrior/Paladin/Dog Soldier (translating the Lakota Term) meaningless.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
3) Their regeneration rate of energy is made so low as to be useless should they equip anything that would make them capable of using any secondary class skills or powers (icon, ankh, cesta, etc.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Solutions: Tactics Stances. Flourish-based Energy attack build. Zealous weapon mods. Condition-stacker (single target or AoE) with Victory is Mine. For W/E, run the attunements.

Response: This all assumes you have access to these skills and enough skill points to split between Tactics, Strength, Weapon, and a Attribute area of a Secondary class. This will never be the case. I am 20th level now. I will at best get another 30 attribute points someplace in the Crystaline Dessert. I can raise one attribute to 12, one to 10, and one to 4. I can raise two attributes to 11 and one to 5. To be functional as a warrior that means 11 in Strength and Weapon, and 5 Tactics. I get S-11/W-12/T-6. There is no room for a secondary class attribute anywhere in that list.

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Like I said before, the energy pool of Warriors is fine how it is. Two pips of regen is completely appropriate for a (starting) energy pool of 20-25. Unless I'm rusty with pip rates, two pips means 4 energy per second. At a total of 20-25, you don't need any more than 2 pips. That's why it's a waste to use Blood Rit/BiP on a Warrior. They don't need it.

Response: At 20th level I think my max pool is now 33 and that is with +8 from Armor bonus. I frequently find we are assaulted by 3-4 additional groups of 4 above what ever sprang out of the woods or ground. There is no energy management that will compensate for this. (Neither for Alesia's waving them in, nor Thomy's running out to find another. LoL) I have found using a bow and staying ranged while I res henchy shock troops is the most effective way to manage a battle against most blockades. (Even without Sprint I can usually advance to the last trans in a pinch.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Honestly, I don't think your points here have any merit whatsoever, because it seems like you want to play spellcasters as if they were Warriors and Warriors as if they were spellcasters...and that's just completely irresponsible, and your expectations there are so unrealistic (even for a fantasy hack n slash setting) that no wonder you're so annoyed. Do us all a favor. Stop posting about this.

Response: It seems to me too many people have a role-model/stereotype that football players can't do chemistry or abstract reasoning - they are just dumb jocks, put them in the meat grinder. That is an easy enough position to reach in our society that says you turn your sacred life on and off when you enter a box. For the Native Nations, Zoroastrians, Moslems, some Neo-Pagans, Amish, and many others this is not the case - sacred training is not something you remove. Nor is secondary or other professional background. I have a strong background in information analysis and specialized forms of electronics analysis that lend themselves well to crittical observation. That never leaves once it is indoctrinated into the person's life. Yet, there are insufficient attribute points for a Warrior Elementalist to indclude that function, Warrior/Monk, Warrior/Mesmer, Warrior/etc.

However, to look at the warrior as inferior in intelligence and only good for muscle or target practice, is no less discriminatory than relegating races to subservience because of supposed inferiority. If you construct their lives that way, then they will infact be that way. Even when the potential of their life was promised to be otherwise. [Ie. They have a secondary but dare not use it.]

The Warrior class does not compliment any secondary class with its attributes. The Warrior class does not benefit from using secondary class skills without losing needed Warrior Attributes (Str, Wpn, and/or Tac). Some other classes may benfit from the mult-class system. The warrior does not. There is a definite prejudice (if unintended) that has established that sacred warriors, elemental warriors, mind warriors, blood warriors, have backgrounds and options for which they will have no reason to develop because the use of them would be suicidal.

It is not necessary that a secondary skill over take the primary profession. I would recommend that the sum of attribute ranks in a secondary profession never be higher than 40% the sum of the attribute ranks in the primary profession. And provide more attribute points. This provides more flexibility to classes while allowing primaries to keep dominance in their field.

The point to having a secondary is to be able to reflect it not only in play (which we can barely do, if at all), but in appearence, which we cannot do at all. Now is this not about powering up the character. It is about expressing what the character is supposed to represent. There should be sufficent at all times to represent both classes and be effective, and there is not. The limitations of skill slots available for play means the player still cannot due too much damage - even if they had more energy points they are still controlled by individual reaction speed and lag.

Fitz Rinley

AeroLion · Nov 07, 2005, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I don't know any easy way to say this so I'll just come out and say it. You have not played this game enough. You're very inexperienced at build making and I think you have no clue what you want your role to be. This is not meant to be demeaning or insulting in anyway. I think you have an honest desire to learn more and to figure things out but I believe you simply have not played enough to gain that knowledge.

I highly, highly suggest you read the Campfire and Gladiator's Arena. Check out some of the Warrior threads there and you'll see what experienced players use their secondary class for and why.

Siren · Nov 07, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
So specifically the game designers were prejudiced against Warriors by differentiating them in these ways:

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
What are you talking about? Prejudiced? Where in the bloody hell are you getting "prejudiced" from? Be sensible. This game (and the dev's intention) is not some...nightmarish pre-Civil Rights Movement alternate reality.

Response: The last prejudice to be addressed will be the prejudice of personallity. It was the intention of those who kept slaves to save their souls, of course they couldn't be prejudiced.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
1) Their primary attribute does not advantage secondary class skills as does the primary attribute of other classes, and

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
So what? If you're a primary Warrior, you're designed to do damage. Strength adds one point of armor penetration per level. It's a primary Warrior's best friend in many cases.

But I really don't see the problem with Strength being Warrior-only, anyway. How this is detrimental to the economy...I have no idea, and I haven't seen you explain it at all. When you have tried to explain it, all I read is long-winded verbosity that says little to nothing at all.

Response: It isn't about the number of physical attacks a spell caster should be making. (Although a Caster-Warrior ought to be able to make them well! But can't because there are insufficient points to allot to those attributes for use at the last minute.)

You analysed backwards. Strength is a warrior only trait. It does not increase damage of Smiting Skills or Earth Skills. Fast Casting is a Mesmer only trait it does improve speed of casting ALL primary and SECONDARY skills.
Warriors are designed to be brute force. If you're trying to tank as a caster (without Earth Eles, or Illusion magic Mesmers), you need to re-think that strategy, just like if you're trying to play a finesse warrior that deals in high-damage Air magic spiking with a build that would clearly be tailored to a primary Ele doing ranged damage...you need to re-think that strategy.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
2) They are penalized with reduced energy points so they cannot utilize the class skills/powers of the secondary which they receive - unlike all other classes.

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
25 energy is more than enough for a Warrior. If you're running out of energy, you're doing something wrong. Plus, I don't even think you've got a valid criticism here, because on top of sounding incredibly nit-picky, if you're playing a Warrior/Ele, and including an Ele spell like Earthquake in your skill bar--a spell that costs 25 energy and causes Exhaustion--that's not the Dev's fault, nor is it the fault of the War's 25 energy. That lousy planning is your own fault. That goes with any of the higher-cost Ele spells (and any higher-cost spells in general) available, too. If you're bitching about the lower energy pool of Warriors, you need to start thinking energy management, that's the bottom line.

Response: I don't use elementalists skills because I can't stand the way they look. The same for the Necromancer, although I would play one if they didn't look like criminal drug addicts from a leather bar. The Elementalists just remind of the rich kids that used to steal mommy and daddy's credit card to play punk for a day or get attention. So, I have never used there energy costs outside of the available trial quests in Pre.

As a Warrior I do not use anything that costs more than 5 points to cast. As a game player I have always known that fastest damage (1) for least cost (2) wins battles. Dead enemies do no damage. In this game it is mandatory:
Flurry - Sever - Wounding/Galrath - Power Attack - Seeking Blade = 15 points. I have learned to keep Healing Sig and Endure Pain at all times. I keep Resurrection Spell for post rear advances and clean-up. I used to attempt to use Monk spells for healing or smiting, but found them to be useless or detrimental in everycase. There is no point in slotting any of them, ever. If one must play past Maguma, or even North of the Wall to be able to successfully integrate any combination of class attributes and skills and be effective as a character then there is no reason for a secondary to exist.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
(This latter is supposed to be balanceed out by adrenaline which sometimes works against foes that drain energy, but some foes are capable of draining life, energy, and preventing adrenaline at the same time in my experience.)
Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Yes, those are called Mesmers. What's the problem? You've got Soothing Images and Sympathetic Visage. That's about it in terms of Adre Breakers. Any Enchant removal and Symp.Visage isn't a problem. Any Hex removal and Soothing Images isn't a problem.

Response: As I have fought for 95% of everthing I have, every gp and monster across the map from Pre to Sanctum Cay, I am almost 20+1 level. At this point I can slaughter gargoyles and mergoyles by myself, no problem. I do not recommend anyone thinking they are going to use Warrior Monk as an ideal attempt to do so. If you drop the Monk and exist solely as a warrior they can't harm you. If you don't your dead. If you try to heal yourself (ie. Healing Breeze) you take 70 pts damage. As the slotting is limited, lag is a factor for most, and repetitive hitting of the bars creates issues, enchantments ought to be good (mechanically for the computer use). They are even the majority of the Monk Spell list. This is one definate example of how the secondary has no value to the primary.

The attributes do not assist. The skills are unusable due to limitations of slotting, energy, and targetting structure of enemies. This makes the idea of a Warrior Monk - Divine Warrior/Paladin/Dog Soldier (translating the Lakota Term) meaningless.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley
3) Their regeneration rate of energy is made so low as to be useless should they equip anything that would make them capable of using any secondary class skills or powers (icon, ankh, cesta, etc.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Solutions: Tactics Stances. Flourish-based Energy attack build. Zealous weapon mods. Condition-stacker (single target or AoE) with Victory is Mine. For W/E, run the attunements.

Response: This all assumes you have access to these skills and enough skill points to split between Tactics, Strength, Weapon, and a Attribute area of a Secondary class. This will never be the case. I am 20th level now. I will at best get another 30 attribute points someplace in the Crystaline Dessert. I can raise one attribute to 12, one to 10, and one to 4. I can raise two attributes to 11 and one to 5. To be functional as a warrior that means 11 in Strength and Weapon, and 5 Tactics. I get S-11/W-12/T-6. There is no room for a secondary class attribute anywhere in that list.

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Like I said before, the energy pool of Warriors is fine how it is. Two pips of regen is completely appropriate for a (starting) energy pool of 20-25. Unless I'm rusty with pip rates, two pips means 4 energy per second. At a total of 20-25, you don't need any more than 2 pips. That's why it's a waste to use Blood Rit/BiP on a Warrior. They don't need it.

Response: At 20th level I think my max pool is now 33 and that is with +8 from Armor bonus. I frequently find we are assaulted by 3-4 additional groups of 4 above what ever sprang out of the woods or ground. There is no energy management that will compensate for this. (Neither for Alesia's waving them in, nor Thomy's running out to find another. LoL) I have found using a bow and staying ranged while I res henchy shock troops is the most effective way to manage a battle against most blockades. (Even without Sprint I can usually advance to the last trans in a pinch.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Siren
Honestly, I don't think your points here have any merit whatsoever, because it seems like you want to play spellcasters as if they were Warriors and Warriors as if they were spellcasters...and that's just completely irresponsible, and your expectations there are so unrealistic (even for a fantasy hack n slash setting) that no wonder you're so annoyed. Do us all a favor. Stop posting about this.

Response: It seems to me too many people have a role-model/stereotype that football players can't do chemistry or abstract reasoning - they are just dumb jocks, put them in the meat grinder. That is an easy enough position to reach in our society that says you turn your sacred life on and off when you enter a box. For the Native Nations, Zoroastrians, Moslems, some Neo-Pagans, Amish, and many others this is not the case - sacred training is not something you remove. Nor is secondary or other professional background. I have a strongbackground in information analysis and specialized forms of electronics analysis that lend themselves well to crittical observation. That never leaves once it is indoctrinated into the persons life. Yet, our there are insufficient points for a Warrior Elementalist to indclude that function, Warrior/Monk, Warrior/Mesmer, Warrior/etc.

The Warrior class does not compliment any secondary class with its attributes. The Warrior class does not benefit from using secondary class skills without losing needed Warrior Attributes (Str, Wpn, and/or Tac). Some other classes may benfit from the mult-class system. The warrior does not. There is a definite prejudice (if unintended) that has established that sacred warriors, elemental warriors, mind warriors, blood warriors, have backgrounds and options for which they will have no reason to develop because the use of them would be suicidal.

It is not necessary that a secondary skill over take the primary profession. I would recommend that the sum of attribute ranks in a secondary profession never be higher than 40% the sum of the attribute ranks in the primary profession. And provide more attribute points. This provides more flexibility to classes while allowing primaries to keep dominance in their field.

The point to having a secondary is to be able to reflect it not only in play (which we can barely do, if at all), but in appearence, which we cannot do at all.

Fitz Rinley

Fitz...I don't care.

You're too hyperfocused on RPing in this game to even begin to understand the class dynamics. Your head is in the clouds, man. You don't play Ele because you don't like the way the spells look? That's horrible reasoning. You don't play Necro because you don't like the way they look? That's piss-poor reasoning. Your post is long but you don't say a damn thing that's worthwhile or even relevant to anything in this discussion.

Dropping a freaking list of different world religions is absolutely irrelevant, and honestly, it doesn't help your "point" at all. It just indicates to me that you really cannot hold a focused discussion and let childish notions of equality cloud what little sense is necessary to see why the game is designed the way it is.

Because your rebuttals don't even touch upon what I said in the other thread. To make things worse, your formatting is substandard (correction: non-existent), so I'm having a hard time following what quote is from which post, because it seems that you just threw around whatever pops into your head, with little to no regard for how it's going to be read, or how it will actually relate to the topic.

I mean, Jesus, dude. I gave you examples of how a Warrior can deal with only two pips of energy regen, and you hyperfocused on how you "can't get the attributes the way you want them." That's a load of crap. 11-10-10. 11 for Primary Weapon attribute. 10 for Strength (or Tactics). 10 for your secondary attribute. You use runes to boost your primary attributes up into the 12-13 range and you've got yourself a very effective multi-talented Warrior there. 10 Domination magic, 10 Earth magic, and so on...very effective, even in a secondary.

If you're trying to cast spells as a Warrior, you're playing the game incorrectly. Just like how Necro/Wars are just pretending to be a tank, a Warrior/spellcaster trying to fire off Air magic is just pretending to be a spellcaster.

By the way, check across the Campfire and Gladiator's Arena here. To say that Warriors can't be Blood, Mind, or whatever other ridiculous pseudo-creative, cutesy names you pulled out of your ass, is demonstrating a total lack of build creativity and ingenuity that I personally can only attribute to one thing and one thing alone:

You haven't played the game enough.

I'd like to see this thread get closed, honestly. I have neither the time nor the interest in debating this topic with you, because there's no depth at all to what you're saying. Your entire argument is just propelled by some outdated and irrelevant "cultural" analysis that is absolutely meaningless when it comes to this game design (and game design in general). I'm beginning to think you really can't offer any reasonable responses.

Plus, Sardelac is suggestions, I believe. This thread is definitely not a Suggestion thread.

Loviatar · Nov 07, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

and what would be the result on the game if you got what you want which is 2 main items.

1. more attribute points so you can raise more attributes to what you feel are acceptable use levels.

2. an energy pool for warriors to use casting skills as if you were a full on elementalist.

lets see the results of that mess.

everybody would be a warrior/x as that would be the one class that could beat everything else.

warriors strength and armor and equal to all the casters with inferior armor.

this game is about balance and the trade off in armor and strength is a smaller energy pool to do caster skills.

if it is so useless why are there so many successful W/M and you are one of the few failures?

Fitz Rinley · Nov 07, 2005, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

You don't play Ele because you don't like the way the spells look? That's horrible reasoning. You don't play Necro because you don't like the way they look? That's piss-poor reasoning.

I don't play them because I can't stand the way either of them look. I am neither a shallow youth immitating big hair days (elementalist appearance) nor a drugged out crimminal. The male necromancer specifically is given this appearence when the female is not. If the situation were reversed and the female were a decayed bag dragging crank freak and the male were shown as hale in appearence there would be a spot on national news about how anti-female and sexist the game was. Doing so to men is not considered sexist because men do not matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Dropping a freaking list of different world religions is absolutely irrelevant, and honestly, it doesn't help your "point" at all. It just indicates to me that you really cannot hold a focused discussion and let childish notions of equality cloud what little sense is necessary to see why the game is designed the way it is.

Look for more than content. When you look at process you will make sense out of what you read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Because your rebuttals don't even touch upon what I said in the other thread. To make things worse, your formatting is substandard (correction: non-existent), so I'm having a hard time following what quote is from which post, because it seems that you just threw around whatever pops into your head, with little to no regard for how it's going to be read, or how it will actually relate to the topic.

That was a direct C&P of the post you made. I then distinguished what you said by placing it in italics. I removed a few things for brevity only. I responded in the order you provided. Sorry you feel this way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I mean, Jesus, dude. I gave you examples of how a Warrior can deal with only two pips of energy regen, and you hyperfocused on how you "can't get the attributes the way you want them." That's a load of crap. 11-10-10. 11 for Primary Weapon attribute. 10 for Strength (or Tactics). 10 for your secondary attribute. You use runes to boost your primary attributes up into the 12-13 range and you've got yourself a very effective multi-talented Warrior there. 10 Domination magic, 10 Earth magic, and so on...very effective, even in a secondary.

That is a Major loss in Life. Three +3 runes is -225 life points. Even a Superior Rune of Vigor is useless against 1 Superior Rune. Further, this does not allow the character to be represented at lower levels of play. If the secondary class is only for Ascended Characters, or the equivalent, there is no point in picking it in Pre or having the concept. One should be only a primary until then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

If you're trying to cast spells as a Warrior, you're playing the game incorrectly. Just like how Necro/Wars are just pretending to be a tank, a Warrior/spellcaster trying to fire off Air magic is just pretending to be a spellcaster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Plus, Sardelac is suggestions, I believe. This thread is definitely not a Suggestion thread.

BULL!!! Emphasis added so a suggestion can be recognised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

It is not necessary that a secondary skill over take the primary profession. I would recommend that the sum of attribute ranks in a secondary profession never be higher than 40% the sum of the attribute ranks in the primary profession. And provide more attribute points. This provides more flexibility to classes while allowing primaries to keep dominance in their field.

quickmonty · Nov 07, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Is anyone else having a difficult time following this. Seems like an argument best kept off these forums.

Siren · Nov 07, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I don't play them because I can't stand the way either of them look. I am neither a shallow youth immitating big hair days (elementalist appearance) nor a drugged out crimminal. The male necromancer specifically is given this appearence when the female is not. If the situation were reversed and the female were a decayed bag dragging crank freak and the male were shown as hale in appearence there would be a spot on national news about how anti-female and sexist the game was. Doing so to men is not considered sexist because men do not matter.

That isn't the game's fault. That is the fault of your own inane expectations.

Quote:

Look for more than content. When you look at process you will make sense out of what you read.

Fitz, pull your head out of your rear end. The content is all that matters. The processes don't matter at all. I don't care at all about your thought processes...because your thought processes belong in a different game entirely.

Quote:

That was a direct C&P of the post you made. I then distinguished what you said by placing it in italics. I removed a few things for brevity only. I responded in the order you provided. Sorry you feel this way.

See what I'm doing here with the quote tags? Yeah. It's not hard. And you can do it pretty damn fast, too.

Quote:

That is a Major loss in Life. Three +3 runes is -225 life points. Even a Superior Rune of Vigor is useless against 1 Superior Rune. Further, this does not allow the character to be represented at lower levels of play. If the secondary class is only for Ascended Characters, or the equivalent, there is no point in picking it in Pre or having the concept. One should be only a primary until then.

What in the hell are you talking about? 3 Superior runes for a 11-10-10 attribute set-up? I shouldn't even dignify this with a response, but you should read up on what runes can be applied to.

Regarding your "does not allow the character to be represented" tripe...if you can't play your secondary because you lack the ingenuity and creativity to design even a temporary combo build that can last you through the game until the secondary prof quests post-Ascension...that's not the game's fault, and that's not the dual class system's fault, either. That's your own damn fault.

I played a Nec/War until Ascension, and I still was damn effective using a combination of those two profs, likewise R/Me on another character, likewise an Ele/Mo. It's about skill synergy, a concept you apparently lack the capacity to understand?

Quote:

BULL!!! Emphasis added so a suggestion can be recognised.

No. Burying three sentences in the middle of a post like yours is neither a suggestion nor recommendation. If you want to make suggestions, make the suggestions. Don't make completely bizarre tangental posts and expect us to pluck one mini-paragraph out of 15 or so completely bizarre and tangental paragraphs. If you continue to do that, you do not know how to write clear and succinct material.

Stop wasting my time, please.

User Name · Nov 07, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I don't play them because I can't stand the way either of them look. I am neither a shallow youth immitating big hair days (elementalist appearance) nor a drugged out crimminal. The male necromancer specifically is given this appearence when the female is not. If the situation were reversed and the female were a decayed bag dragging crank freak and the male were shown as hale in appearence there would be a spot on national news about how anti-female and sexist the game was. Doing so to men is not considered sexist because men do not matter.

you can't be serious...you simply can't be.

Quote:

That was a direct C&P of the post you made. I then distinguished what you said by placing it in italics. I removed a few things for brevity only. I responded in the order you provided. Sorry you feel this way.

Arm a man with a few 10th grade vocabulary words and all of a sudden they think they pose intelligent conversation.

Quote:

That is a Major loss in Life. Three +3 runes is -225 life points. Even a Superior Rune of Vigor is useless against 1 Superior Rune. Further, this does not allow the character to be represented at lower levels of play. If the secondary class is only for Ascended Characters, or the equivalent, there is no point in picking it in Pre or having the concept. One should be only a primary until then.

why would you be using three superior runes? is it a lack of understanding of the game dynamics and skill basics? or your undying need to be the most omnipotent force on the battle field? The Superior Rune was put into the game to allow you to boost one attribute line. It was not put into the game for you to stack onto your armor and boost all your attribute lines...as this is the case you take a severe penalty for using one. But surely someone as intelligent as you are, with the knowledge of the game you have showcased thus far, has realized that this game isn't about stacking HP...it's about reducing the damage you are taking.

Fitz Rinley · Nov 07, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and what would be the result on the game if you got what you want which is 2 main items.

1. more attribute points so you can raise more attributes to what you feel are acceptable use levels.

I suggested secondary attribute totals not exceed 2/5ths primary. Hence, if I have 3 pts in primary ranks I could not have more than 2 pts in secondary ranks. There is still incentive to use primary skills, especially since the warriors primary attribute does not benefit ANY secondary skills - like other spell casters primary attributes do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

2. an energy pool for warriors to use casting skills as if you were a full on elementalist. Lets see the results of that mess: Everybody would be a warrior/x as that would be the one class that could beat everything else.

Not true. Drop the Gladiator Armor energy bonus off to 1 per piece, and grant all warriors an energy of 5 higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

warriors strength and armor and equal to all the casters with inferior armor.

Other than the casters have integratable attribute areas (fast-casting affects secondary skills, strength does not help smiting prayers, energy storage affects secondary skills, etc.) Casters are designed to integrate better. Nor do I accept that the secondary of the castors should be overlooked. Warrior secondaries should be able to have better armor to reflect that background.

My real suggestion has been that the secondary be reflected in the characters and play effectively, and they are barely present. You can tell immediately when you meat an enemy Ranger/Necro by how he looks and what he does. We have * f l o a t y t e x t *... if they are moving in town. The only secondary skill that is never downgraded is the ranger keeping their pet for cannon fodder.

I see no reason why our X/Warriors and X/Rangers shouldn't have better armor that reflects their status and background. Nor do I think a few more points or slightly higher regen is going to grant a warrior anywhere near the 90 some energy points the Monk I travelled with the other day had as his max. (He complained bitterly about regen loss because someone put mending on him without asking.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

If it is so useless why are there so many successful W/M and you are one of the few failures?

My dear Goddess of Pain, that spell and I do not work. I am a crittical analyst and ethicist. I have what I have because I have gotten it, not because I have relied on others. My position remains that the roles of primary and secondary are not well integrated and could be made better. The secondary classes are not promoted and specialization is forced into the primary class. The ideal of Warrior/X looks good in design but the implementation is far short of any type of coordinated or holistic make-up. The lack of expressibility of the secondary class in appearance, and performance make the resume a lie/fraud.

Fritz Rinley

PS. And I maintain that if the female necro were to appear as a decrepid old hag whil the male was a vivacious young stud NOW would be marching on the Guild Halls with the favor of the Gods.

Symeon · Nov 07, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Waa I hate threads that are used for quoting arguments

Fitz Rinley · Nov 07, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

That isn't the game's fault. That is the fault of your own inane expectations.

No. It is a fault of the game for not providing for the older (over 30 audience) that plays. There are many who are not. There are a great many who are. It is NEVER inappropriate for the customer to expect the product to be made with them in mind. As a Role Player with more than 30 years experience and a computer on-line I fit the into the category of expected customer. That is sufficient to expect consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

The content is all that matters. The processes don't matter at all. I don't care at all about your thought processes...because your thought processes belong in a different game entirely.

The process of the content related in the sentence. You think too Aristotelian. You are jumping for objects not conceptualization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

See what I'm doing here with the quote tags? Yeah. It's not hard. And you can do it pretty damn fast, too.

Used quote tags too, once I had them. This system is different from any others I use. I brought this through notepad to here as I am not a moderator I can't move portions of a thread like they can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

What in the hell are you talking about? 3 Superior runes for a 11-10-10 attribute set-up? I shouldn't even dignify this with a response, but you should read up on what runes can be applied to.

One rune would give a little flexibility to upper end character, but is still useless to a lower level character. 11-10-10 is great if you can guarantee the shield your going to find is from an attribute you are going to be able to use. Then you can put something into a secondary, otherwise you have to keep all of them in Primary for both skills and armor usage. Since Posting, I've seen one shield that was Str based and it was given to me by a friends character. What I have now is a point higher and +4 to trolls which I am fighting - so I gave him back his shield. But I have to keep tactics. All attributes for a warrior are controlled to the point of making the secondary useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Regarding your "does not allow the character to be represented" tripe...if you can't play your secondary because you lack the ingenuity and creativity to design even a temporary combo build that can last you through the game until the secondary prof quests post-Ascension...that's not the game's fault, and that's not the dual class system's fault, either. That's your own damn fault.

I played a Nec/War until Ascension, and I still was damn effective using a combination of those two profs, likewise R/Me on another character, likewise an Ele/Mo. It's about skill synergy, a concept you apparently lack the capacity to understand?

I comprehend skill synergy and with others I have worked on puzzles so complicated we used a Cray to assist in keeping the data and doing the crunching. I have ammended that there are secondary structures that work because the primary attribute of the casting classes also benefits the secondary attibute areas. This is not the case for Warriors who receive several penalties or Monks, whose attribute only benefits healing and protection. (A monk throwing Blood Well would receive no Divine bonuses.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

If you continue to do that, you do not know how to write clear and succinct material.

SJ. ROFL. You are correct, I see.

I do not waste your time. That is not my choice.

Fitz Rinley

Symeon · Nov 07, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

cough cough ahem ahem

Fitz Rinley · Nov 07, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroLion

I don't know any easy way to say this so I'll just come out and say it. You have not played this game enough. You're very inexperienced at build making and I think you have no clue what you want your role to be. This is not meant to be demeaning or insulting in anyway. I think you have an honest desire to learn more and to figure things out but I believe you simply have not played enough to gain that knowledge.

I highly, highly suggest you read the Campfire and Gladiator's Arena. Check out some of the Warrior threads there and you'll see what experienced players use their secondary class for and why.

You are starting with maxed characters. This means nothing. If you cannot play what you are from start to finnish then it is poor design. I cannot start with 12-10-8 in anything. I cannot start with Galrath Slash or an Bull's Charge, etc. Builds based on the end of the game or PvP mean nothing. They do not allow the player express what the character is at all times thru the game play. The flexibility of points is nice, but the structure makes altering them useless.

Maxing all my points in Str, Wpn, and Tac and denying the existence of a secondary makes my character effective. Without specialization there is no survival. Integration of the character's background (secondary) is useless. You can call it being in-experienced, when what you really mean is the character doesn't have what it needs to be functional because it hasn't been though ascension and obtained elite skills (as shown in the builds you sent me to look at).

Fitz Rinley

I do know what I wanted out of my character. I read the provided book. I chose a character. Filius, shortened to Fitz and used to reperesent illegitimate children in registers made by monastic orders. Rinley detailing one that lives in or lived in the Valley of Rin. An illegitimate child left at a monastery dedicated to Balthazar was raised as a Warrior/Monk - Holy Warrior/Paladin/Dog Soldier/Sword Saint. The sword is allowed because meat in a can is supported in the game - nothing else is.

Loviatar · Nov 07, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

I suggested secondary attribute totals not exceed 2/5ths primary. Hence, if I have 3 pts in primary ranks I could not have more than 2 pts in secondary ranks. There is still incentive to use primary skills, especially since the warriors primary attribute does not benefit ANY secondary skills - like other spell casters primary attributes do.

right here is where you say *MORE ATTRIBUTE POINTS*

Quote:

It is not necessary that a secondary skill over take the primary profession. I would recommend that the sum of attribute ranks in a secondary profession never be higher than 40% the sum of the attribute ranks in the primary profession. And provide more attribute points. This provides more flexibility to classes while allowing primaries to keep dominance in their field.

and for the following garbage

Quote:

It seems to me too many people have a role-model/stereotype that football players can't do chemistry or abstract reasoning - they are just dumb jocks, put them in the meat grinder.

make your comparison of the football jock with the gymnast (both of whom can be brains ) there are different physical and mental attributes for both and neither is by definition inferior.

THERE IS A VERY GOOD GUIDE ON POINT DISTRIBUTION ON THIS SITE.

it may come as a shock to you but my E/N only does 3 attribute lines

storage 8
fire 9
blood 6

i cant max out a forth oh what will i ever doooo?

you want to be a jack of all trades and MASTER OF THEM ALL

AeroLion · Nov 07, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

You are starting with maxed characters. This means nothing. If you cannot play what you are from start to finnish then it is poor design. I cannot start with 12-10-8 in anything. I cannot start with Galrath Slash or an Bull's Charge, etc. Builds based on the end of the game or PvP mean nothing. They do not allow the player express what the character is at all times thru the game play. The flexibility of points is nice, but the structure makes altering them useless.

Maxing all my points in Str, Wpn, and Tac and denying the existence of a secondary makes my character effective. Without specialization there is no survival. Integration of the character's background (secondary) is useless. You can call it being in-experienced, when what you really mean is the character doesn't have what it needs to be functional because it hasn't been though ascension and obtained elite skills (as shown in the builds you sent me to look at).

Fitz Rinley

I do know what I wanted out of my character. I read the provided book. I chose a character. Filius, shortened to Fitz and used to reperesent illegitimate children in registers made by monastic orders. Rinley detailing one that lives in or lived in the Valley of Rin. An illegitimate child left at a monastery dedicated to Balthazar was raised as a Warrior/Monk - Holy Warrior/Paladin/Dog Soldier/Sword Saint. The sword is allowed because meat in a can is supported in the game - nothing else is.

Again, you show a complete ignorance of the game mechanics. The point of the Gladiator's Arena and the Campfire is not only to discuss endgame or PVP strategy but also to teach how certain types of skills and professions interact and synergise.

You keep saying things like maxing str,weap, and tact, makes you character effective. Effective at what? This is what I meant by "role," not the background story of your character.

I call it inexperienced not because of the lack of skills at x point in the game but inexperienced because of your seeming pentient for writing off the secondary professions. Your posts show that you have no idea what they are there for, which is to be expected from your current point of progress. Instead of arguing about it, you should visit the sections of this forum where you can learn more. Perhaps then you can come back with a more thought out critique of the class system in Guild Wars.

Loviatar · Nov 07, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Maxing all my points in Str, Wpn, and Tac and denying the existence of a secondary makes my character effective. .

this person actually knows what he is talking about and the reading is interesting to show what compromises need to be made.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...tion-id270.php

and my E/N uses
headpiece FIRE +1
MINOR fire rune + 1 for no health penalty
MINOR storage +1 no health penalty
and MAJOR VIGOR which is almost as good at a fraction of the price.

you need MAX attributes

you think only of MAXIMUM SUPERIOR RUNES

you just want MAXIMUM everything without compromise

as i said you want to be a

*jack of all trades and MASTER OF ALL*

Siren · Nov 07, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

No. It is a fault of the game for not providing for the older (over 30 audience) that plays. There are many who are not. There are a great many who are. It is NEVER inappropriate for the customer to expect the product to be made with them in mind. As a Role Player with more than 30 years experience and a computer on-line I fit the into the category of expected customer. That is sufficient to expect consideration.

No. We have many 30-year-olds here, but never have I seen anyone continually pull the kinds of garbage you do on such a regular basis. Fitz, get with the program, man. Nobody cares if you're 20, if you're 30, or hell, if you've got one foot in the grave already, because no matter what your age is, your arguments here are always going to be inane and irrelevant, because what you want is the complete antithesis of the game design of GW, not to mention the complete antithesis of what experienced players want and expect.

And please don't try to pull that "as a customer, I can voice my desires" crap. The customer is not always right--and you sure as hell aren't in the right here, because it's becoming frighteningly clear that you have no idea what the game needs--or even what the game is in the first place.

Face it. The game you want is somewhere else.

Quote:

The process of the content related in the sentence. You think too Aristotelian. You are jumping for objects not conceptualization.

Fitz, give me purpose (and logical points and rebuttals that demonstrate an actual understanding of game dynamics and combat fundamentals without lapsing into the "I have done this and this culture is this" drivel) in your post or stop replying.

Quote:

Used quote tags too, once I had them. This system is different from any others I use. I brought this through notepad to here as I am not a moderator I can't move portions of a thread like they can.

I had talked about irrelevant and unfocused posts of yours before. The above excerpt is one of the many examples.

Quote:

One rune would give a little flexibility to upper end character, but is still useless to a lower level character. 11-10-10 is great if you can guarantee the shield your going to find is from an attribute you are going to be able to use. Then you can put something into a secondary, otherwise you have to keep all of them in Primary for both skills and armor usage. Since Posting, I've seen one shield that was Str based and it was given to me by a friends character. What I have now is a point higher and +4 to trolls which I am fighting - so I gave him back his shield. But I have to keep tactics. All attributes for a warrior are controlled to the point of making the secondary useless.

Ask a few low-level characters in Ascalon City if they have any Minor Runes equipped then come back and talk to me. "One rune useless to a lower-level character" is absolute garbage that just demonstrates to me that you really haven't played this game much at all. For lower-level characters, Minor runes are fantastic--and even at higher levels, as well. Plug a Minor onto an attribute of 11, and you've got max right there, allowing you to use a Superior rune on a lower level attribute. You need to explore the game, man.

Your shield discussion is as clumsy as it is stupid, as well. You're pointing to two types of shield reqs and using that to somehow invalidate a very effective and easy attribute assignment? So you have a shield with Tactics. What a shame. That makes 11-10-10 so useless. You're not making any sense, Fitz. You don't have to keep Tactics. Who says that you do? You know about re-speccing, right?

It sounds to me like you just want to look for problems--rather, you just want to create problems for yourself, because nobody *has* to keep any particular attribute line. The characters are versatile as hell; you just want to stay locked in your tunnel vision so that your entire argument makes sense to you.

But to everyone else who's actually played the game the way it was meant to be played (i.e., versatile attributes and creative build design)...you're a complete fool.

Quote:

I comprehend skill synergy and with others I have worked on puzzles so complicated we used a Cray to assist in keeping the data and doing the crunching.

THE ABOVE EXCERPT IS IRRELEVANT CRAP.

Quote:

I have ammended that there are secondary structures that work because the primary attribute of the casting classes also benefits the secondary attibute areas. This is not the case for Warriors who receive several penalties or Monks, whose attribute only benefits healing and protection. (A monk throwing Blood Well would receive no Divine bonuses.)

Fitz, go right ahead and try to tank as a Monk. Better yet, go Mo/W and do complete physical combat. No healing. No prot. Not even Smiting. You won't last long. Do you know why? Because Monks aren't Warriors. Because you'd be a Monk pretending to be a Warrior.

Here's another one. W/Mo. Act as the group's Hex/Cond removal. Don't focus on damage-dealing. Include absolutely no damage-dealing skills whatsoever. Focus on removing that group's Hexes and Conditions as they call them for removal. See how long you'll be able to keep up there. You'd be a Warrior pretending to be a Monk.

Do you know why Energy Storage, Soul Reaping, Fast Casting, and Divine Favor are exclusively spellcaster specialties? Because they benefit spellcasters the most.

It's why an Ele/W is almost an entirely useless combination, because unless you go Ele attack magic and Tactics or heavy Earth mage defense and a weapon attribute...you might as well paint a big red target on your ass if you pretend to be a Warrior in battle.

Or take a Me/Mo. There are distinct advantages to having Fast Casting Healing/Prot and all, but since you're losing the Divine Favor, in-combat healing/prot should be left to a primary Monk. Fast Casting Me/Mo are good for Smiting and Mes-Rez. If you want a Monk but don't necessarily want to heal, go with a Monk secondary. It's just common sense.

And Blood Nec/Monk or Mo/Blood Nec combos aren't as useless as you're implying, either.

The first problem with your "(A monk throwing Blood Well would receive no Divine bonuses.)" statement is that Divine Favor is not AoE-based. It's designed to be most effective on single targets. So pointing to that and essentially saying "Oh, well, a Monk won't get Divine Favor bonuses from Well of Blood, so therefore that's lame and the character dynamics should be changed" is totally lame and misguided.

Secondly, Mo/N is pretty fantastic when it comes to group healing/support. Think about it. You've got WoB for AoE Warrior heals. You've got Divine Favor and either Healing/Prot for your casters. You've got Blood Rit/BiP for any caster energy support. For your own energy management, try Blessed Signet, a few maintained Enchants like Essence Bond, and from Blood Nec, Offering of Blood {E}. I was using that type of build for a long, long time and it works very, very well--especially in PvE, and I've been on teams with another battery Monk like that in PvP, and they're still fantastic.

Thirdly--hell, just those two points alone are enough to prove my point that your crit of a Mo/N is absurd and demonstrates a complete lack of experience playing those two classes.

Quote:

SJ. ROFL. You are correct, I see.

I do not waste your time. That is not my choice.

Fitz, every single time you reply to me with absolute gibberish and uneducated, irrelevant nonsense, you are wasting my time. It is your choice, by the way. You choose to reply.

But I think you're partially right, too. It isn't your choice to litter your posts with complete nonsense, because you just don't pay attention to what you're saying.

I think it's time we treated this thread like Old Yeller.

Loviatar · Nov 07, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

I think it's time we treated this thread like Old Yeller.

i first saw that at the neighborhood drive in (later the local passion pit) when it first came out.

Fitz Rinley

for someone who claims so much experience in games over a long period you have made a pardon the expression *NOOB MISTAKE* in that you bought a game violating 2 major rules of buying a game.

1. you failed to actually find out what the game was before you bought it

2. letting what you hoped it would be overide any checking up which might have stopped you from getting it

now that you have it you are acting like a child who spent the entire years game budget on the wrong game and can not let go of it.

if i get a game that i dont like i give it to a friend who wants it (i may shake my head at his taste in games) and forget about it.

i make a note to be more carefull of purchases but that is it.

Savio · Nov 08, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Closed because this is mainly a back-and-forth quote argument, going nowhere, and it's better suited to PMs or some other form of communication.